Gideon's Family

[mrsmajessick]

I agree with Monica being upset over the possible "damage goods" thoughts. But, I'm starting to have a little bit of a problem with Miss Monica. When I re-read BTY the other day, I was a little put off that Monica bought such a sexy dress for Eva to wear to the charity dinner. I mean yes, I get that Monica wants Eva to look good and catch a good husband, but the description of that dress sounds downright almost naked. Why make your daughter who's a sex abuse survivor look like a sexual toy for rich men? Then in RIY Monica had the gall to call Cary a tramp regarding that same night. As Eva said something like  "gotta remember to thank my mother for the easy access dress. I don't think Monica has any room to talk when she's pimping her daughter. Okay pimping is harsh, I'll say pushing her daughter towards rich men. Just my opinion. Anyone else?

[AMC]

Great point!  I think that Monica is really immature...

I think that she will have a fling with Victor...

[GiGi]

 

I agree with Monica being upset over the possible "damage goods" thoughts. But, I'm starting to have a little bit of a problem with Miss Monica. When I re-read BTY the other day, I was a little put off that Monica bought such a sexy dress for Eva to wear to the charity dinner. I mean yes, I get that Monica wants Eva to look good and catch a good husband, but the description of that dress sounds downright almost naked. Why make your daughter who's a sex abuse survivor look like a sexual toy for rich men? Then in RIY Monica had the gall to call Cary a tramp regarding that same night. As Eva said something like  "gotta remember to thank my mother for the easy access dress. I don't think Monica has any room to talk when she's pimping her daughter. Okay pimping is harsh, I'll say pushing her daughter towards rich men. Just my opinion. Anyone else?

 

Hi Mrsmajessick,

Wow! You make a really great point! I never even thought about that. Each character in this book is like an onion. One only has to keep peeling back the layers and still there is more... It is almost as if Monica sees her daughter as a friend and not her child. Yuck.

[MegansCoils]

Hi everyone, I was thinking about what everyone said and I did a little investigating of my own. I went back to Sylvia's book Reflected In You and I looked up the scene between Eva and Gideon's mom. On page 298-299... Elizabeth Vidal stated " I'm Christopher's mother too, and he was there. He swears nothing happened. Who was I supposed to believe when there was no proof? No one could find anything to support Gideon's claims." That quote in itself suggests that Elizabeth Vidal did indeed question Christopher about Gideon's sexual abuse, which is wrong on so many levels. It is clear that Elizabeth Vidal will never win mother of the year.

 

 

I remember this quote too. It's what made me believe that Gideon and Chris were not close because maybe Chris did something to him when he was younger.

[LN Cronan]

Eva saw a glimpse of the dark side of Christopher when she saw the video of him having sex with a distraught Magdalene at the garden party. Eva thought, "That he was taking advantage of her was obvious. It was there in the contemptuously triumphant look on his face as he screwed her until she was limp." And once Eva was done watching the tape, Gideon watching it too over Eva's shoulder in the car on the way to work, she described Christopher as "creepy."

The conversation that followed gave us a glimpse, from Gideon, about why Christopher hates him. "He thinks I got all the attention when we were younger because everyone was worried about how I was handling my father's suicide. So he wants what's mine. Everything he can get his hands on."

Other hints we've seen: Christopher started acting out angrily too as a kid, imitating Gideon's outbursts. Gideon described the adult him as "unstable." Gideon tried controlling the adult Christopher through a combo of throwing money at him and threatening him. And that Gideon, realizing it didn't work, has taken a damage control stance.

It's obvious that Christopher "getting his hands on" what's Gideon's has included some sort of history of Christopher using women who were after Gideon. "I thought Maggie would be safe from him. Our mothers have known one another for years. I forget how much he hates me."

Eva met Christopher the first time Gideon took her out publicly, the advocacy dinner. While Gideon was busy elsewhere talking to people, Christopher introduced himself and asked Eva to dance. And started plying her for information about the nature of her relationship with Gideon. And was pleased to hear Eva still considered herself available (at that time). From the get-go, Christopher flirted with her, and he upped the ante the two times he saw Eva post-Gideon break-up.

Fast forward to near the end of Reflected, when Eva had asked Christopher to lunch, part of her going after people around Gideon to determine what role they all played in the mess (his mother, then Corrine, then Dr. Lucas). Christopher started off with a cheap shot, wondering whether her having lunch with him had anything to do with " ...Gideon getting back together with Corrine." Ouch. Hoping Eva might end up distraught enough to sleep with him?

Eva asked Christopher why he hated Gideon, and by the time lunch was over, concluded to herself she had a pretty good idea why. Jealousy fueled the hatred: Gideon was richer, more handsome, more powerful, more confident. And Christopher believed Gideon got all the attention when they were children. "Worse, the sibling rivalry had crossed over into their professional lives when Cross Industries acquired a majority share of Vidal records."

[GiGi]

Hi LN Cronan, I agree with your position about Christopher. I also just wanted to add that; on pg. 265 of BTY..."To an observer, it was clear he knew her body well-where to pet and where to rub....", it may be possible the Magdalene and Christopher may have had sexual relations prior. Could it be that is part of what Eva found was creepy about Christopher? It seems that his guy was playing some people like a fiddle.

[LN Cronan]

Hi LN Cronan, I agree with your position about Christopher. I also just wanted to add that; on pg. 265 of BTY..."To an observer, it was clear he knew her body well-where to pet and where to rub....", it may be possible the Magdalene and Christopher may have had sexual relations prior. Could it be that is part of what Eva found was creepy about Christopher? It seems that his guy was playing some people like a fiddle.

Most definitely, GiGi: it's obvious they've been sleeping together for some time. How it must have burned Christopher that Magdalene had been still pursuing Gideon all that time.

 

Maybe the creepy look on Christopher's face came from the knowledge Gideon had finally rejected her (in a manner of speaking) so Christopher now had "dibs" on her. Even though Christopher was telling her things she wanted to hear (Eva's not Gideon's type, he'll tire of her soon) Magdalene could clearly see Gideon was in love. More ammo for Christopher. 

 

I wonder whether Christopher knows about the tape. Gideon never did tell Magdalene how he (Gideon) got it. And I'll bet that Eva's the last person Magdalene suspects, because Eva was busy with Gideon in the library the whole time she was busy with Christopher outside on the estate grounds.

[GiGi]

Hi LN Cronan, This is strictly speculation, but I think that maybe Christopher does know. I think it would fuel more hatred toward Gideon. It was like something you said, Gideon is clearly in love with Eva and now that Gideon knows about the whole Magdalene affair, it still hasn't changed his position other than to say...."hey brother she's all yours". I guess what they didn't count on was Gideon's feelings for Magdalene. Other than a familial friendship there was never anything more. Or should I say, that maybe Magdalene deluded herself into thinking that Gideon would have or had some strong feelings for her. It seems like that was a huge miscalculation on Christopher and Magdalene's part. I will be really interested to know why Gideon got controlling interest in Vidal Records. Maybe that will shed some light on why Christopher still holds such a grudge towards his brother.

[mrsmajessick]

I really think Gideon gained controlling interest in Vidal Records to stick it to his family for not being supportive when he was being abused. They now have to bare the uncomfortable feeling of insecurity - not knowing when/if Gideon may sale his share of the company off to a complete stranger or dismantle it and shut it down. Now "how" he was able to "get" that controlling interest is something I wonder about??  

 

I also speculate that Christopher's grudge towards Gideon is just pure jealousy. He knows he's always gonna be just a little less than Gideon. Even when Vidal Sr. & the Mrs. kick the bucket, he will at the most, only get less than half the company. He's never gonna be a boss and it's killing him. Which is why I think he was hooking up with Magdalene - to feel like he could get someone close to Gideon. I suspect he really doesn't like Magdalene because she wants Gideon and not him.

 

If Elizabeth really did ask Christopher about Gideon being abused and he lied about it - then he's been a sick little puppy for a very long time. Which would be a thread throughout this book of children being harmed by the betrayal of other children such as Nathan, who was just a 12 year old child when he started raping Eva who was only 10 years old.

[GiGi]

Hi Mrsmajessick & Everyone, Do you think that it is possible that Christopher was also abused? I get the whole sibling rivalry thing and all, but that kind of rage...hmm. It just almost seems like there may be a little more there. I really hope that the relationship between Gideon and Christopher is explained a little more. Thus far we have Gideon's perspective and then we have Christopher's obvious hatred toward his brother. I just wonder if there is something we are not seeing. Maybe delirium is finally setting in from all this waiting for the next book.

[mrsmajessick]

Hi GiGi, It is very possible that Christopher was also abused. He was so young at the time I just keep wondering how much he would have even understood if it was only Gideon? If he was also being abused it would explain why he lied to Elizabeth, a young child was probably scared to death to say anything much like Eva. But, there's always one of those with this cast, wouldn't he be more apt to stand with his brother in telling the truth - especially given his age?

 

I keep going back to thinking that Elizabeth is just flat out lying to Eva and that she never asked Christopher. I think for some unknown reason Elizabeth is the "how" Gideon was able to gain controlling interest of Vidal Sr. company. Now here's some real delirium - lol - Maybe Elizabeth was having an affair with the mysterious pervert grad student and didn't want it to come out or the grad student had something he was holding over Elizabeth - like maybe she knew Gideon's father was stealing money. She may have even sacrificed Gideon to keep from compromising herself in his father's mess. Who knows except for Sylvia - and she ain't telling, at least not yet!

 

But I do think it was pretty clever of Sylvia to keep Eva from confronting Christopher outright; keeps the mystery going that way.

 

So, I have a question for anyone who cares to speculate. Who messed Nathan up? Was Monica highly sexualized (is that a word) around the boy and realized it only after the fact? And, that's why she's so overkill protective now? I can just picture Monica running around the house in tight dresses acting all Marilyn Monroe-ish. Which just made me think that's interesting about Monica that she seems to only know how to appeal to men in a sexualized way. Okay that was three questions I'm gonna shut up now.

[LN Cronan]

Hi GiGi, It is very possible that Christopher was also abused. He was so young at the time I just keep wondering how much he would have even understood if it was only Gideon? If he was also being abused it would explain why he lied to Elizabeth, a young child was probably scared to death to say anything much like Eva. But, there's always one of those with this cast, wouldn't he be more apt to stand with his brother in telling the truth - especially given his age?

 

I keep going back to thinking that Elizabeth is just flat out lying to Eva and that she never asked Christopher. I think for some unknown reason Elizabeth is the "how" Gideon was able to gain controlling interest of Vidal Sr. company. Now here's some real delirium - lol - Maybe Elizabeth was having an affair with the mysterious pervert grad student and didn't want it to come out or the grad student had something he was holding over Elizabeth - like maybe she knew Gideon's father was stealing money. She may have even sacrificed Gideon to keep from compromising herself in his father's mess. Who knows except for Sylvia - and she ain't telling, at least not yet!

 

But I do think it was pretty clever of Sylvia to keep Eva from confronting Christopher outright; keeps the mystery going that way.

 

So, I have a question for anyone who cares to speculate. Who messed Nathan up? Was Monica highly sexualized (is that a word) around the boy and realized it only after the fact? And, that's why she's so overkill protective now? I can just picture Monica running around the house in tight dresses acting all Marilyn Monroe-ish. Which just made me think that's interesting about Monica that she seems to only know how to appeal to men in a sexualized way. Okay that was three questions I'm gonna shut up now.

 

I think Nathan was a true psychopath, a bad seed from the very beginning and not the result of his environment (though environment worsened it). One of the red flags of a psychopath is killing animals. Nathan killed Eva's pet cat, breaking its neck and leaving the body on her bed. That said, I'm sure Monica becoming his stepmother could have been a trigger to his eventually turning sexually violent - her so beautiful and sexy and his father so enamored that he paid little attention to Nathan once Monica entered the household.  He was 12 years old and thus barely pubescent when he began raping his two-years-younger stepsister.

 

Regarding the majority ownership of Vidal records .... the helplessness Gideon went through as a child (his father's crimes/suicide and then the sexual abuse) left him with very serious control issues, and not just in the bedroom. He equates wealth with a sense of security, and he has a tendency to use money to seek to control people. Look at how he first got access to Eva, by hiring her boss for the vodka PR campaign. It makes sense he would exert control over his family through his own massive wealth. I hope we learn more of the Vidal records backstory in Entwined: did Christopher Sr. ask Gideon to bail out the record company, or did Gideon seize control on his own? My guess is the latter. And how old was Gideon when he did this? I'm guessing early 20s - as soon as he had enough money to buy the shares. Is this the reason he chose entertainment companies as the foundation of his wealth, to get back at his mother and stepfamily?

 

Christopher was only five years old and Elizabeth was pregnant with Ireland when Gideon was put into therapy. The main therapist who was supposed to work with Gideon ended up spending all her time with Elizabeth to help her through a difficult pregnancy, and the doctoral student who was the abuser was left alone with Gideon. I think Elizabeth Vidal lied through her teeth to Eva about having asked Christopher anything. Remember, at the time of the confrontation between the two women, Elizabeth knew (because she asked Eva) that Gideon hadn't told Eva anything. Eva's suspicions were all based purely on witnessing Gideon's nightmares. Eva ultimately decided against confronting Christopher because "He'd been a child himself, living in a dysfunctional home." (Reflected page 326)

[GiGi]

Hi Mrsmajessick, Wowie Zowie!! You have some really interesting theories, but what is most interesting is that they could all potentially be true! The only reason I could think of someone hurting Gideon is if his father hurt one of his victims' children (you hurt my child and now I am going to hurt yours). Or the child of one of his swindling victims may have been around the age where he could exact his familial revenge on Gideon Cross. What Sylvia doesn't make clear is how long Gideon's father was swindling his clients? Was it a "Bernie Madoff type" affair or was it a quick and dirty swindle? I think we would be able to tighten our theories a little more if we had a little more information. 2. You could be right about Elizabeth Vidal lying. Who knows? That woman seems to be living in a world with a different reality. Due to the fact that she so grossly neglected her child, it is difficult to believe a word that comes out of her mouth. I agree, I am not so sure that she would confess her mothering flaws to the girlfriend of her estranged son. It seems she can't even accept responsibility for what she's done with her son. 3. I also agree that it was good that Eva didn't confront Christopher. There may be a reason and I can hardly wait to find out why. 4. You made a valid point about the whole controlling interest of Vidal Records issue. If ma and pa Vidal kicked the bucket, then Christopher would only be entitled to 1/3 of 1/2 of Vidal Records. Do you think that would be enough for Christopher to hold that kind of grudge? 5. As far as Nathan is concerned, that is one seriously f#*$@d situation. Do you think that maybe his father (Monica's first husband) was abusing his own son? Monica was off spending, entertaining and being the trophy wife while her husband was out earning millions. How could Nathan's father not notice his son's behaviour? Surely one of the staff members must have said something to someone? It appears that his behaviour escalated over a period of time. The book didn't mention that as soon as Monica married her first husband, Nathan began immediately raping her. So I ask; what the heck was going on during that time? 6. I don't think Monica had sex with Nathan or was sexually inappropriate with him (ie. touching or kissing him inappropriately). I do believe that she most likely presented the beautifully put together trophy wife package, thereby giving Nathan the idea that a wife is possession to be acquired (it isn't stated how many marriages Nathan's father had before Monica). I wonder how happy her first marriage must have been because from Eva's account, her mother was occupying her time by spending her husband's money. Not once was it ever mentioned Monica and her first husband doing things together or spending time as a family. It seems that the children were left to their own devices and left to raise themselves. Dangerous combination.... 7. You also make another very valid point about Monica. I think she equates her self worth with her ability to trade on the only commodity she has, her sexuality. There is no mention of Monica's education or any interest of pursuing a career. It seems (depending on her age) that she was raised with the philosophy of "good girls get married and look pretty for their husbands". If a woman has no other life skills (education, employment, etc.) it would make sense that she could play on her looks and use her to snag herself some financial security. Those are just my thoughts. What does everyone else think?

[GiGi]

Hi LN Cronan, You make some very interesting points. I think it is entirely possible that Nathan may well have been a psychopath. What is interesting is that most people who are psychopaths aren’t violent. They use their skills to mimic empathy, sympathy or whatever to best fit into society. They use their lack of ability to feel compassion to their advantage. So the question I have is: Where did Nathan discover or decide that it was acceptable for him to behave in a violent way without fear of repercussion? Who modeled that it was ok to behave in that way without consequences? Quick question here; do you think that Nathan used to play peeping tom with his dad when he used to get busy with Monica? Do you think that maybe Nathan was jealous and therefore started acting out or maybe started doing to Eva what his father did to Monica? Monkey see monkey do thing? As far as the killing of animal’s thing, Nathan killed Eva’s cat in an attempt to keep her quiet but was raping and torturing her a long time before that incident. This kid didn’t seem to start off with small crimes. He just jumped straight into some of the worst offenses and got off on getting away with his crimes. I would think that killing animals is a first step on the path of becoming a seriously violent offender. Nathan already escalated his crime spree and was inflicting horrible amounts of violence on his victim Eva. It appears that he was also sexually sadistic and Eva’s fear seemed to turn him on. It also spurred him on. So where else would someone like that have to go but to murder? I am not sure about the bad seed theory. I would like to believe that all babies start out inherently good and that the parents and the people that surround that child create that sociopathic child. I don’t know. Maybe those individuals have a mental defect, an actual physical abnormality on their brains which doesn’t allow them to develop fully or normally. I have seen so many people come from horrendous early childhood situations and they have developed into kind, compassionate people. Who knows? I agree with you about the wealth aspect of the book. I think, in a way, each character equates wealth with a sense of security. Gideon has all the wealth in the world, Monica is married to a man who seems to indulge her whims and so she has a sense of security (as well as divorce settlements from previous marriages that have left her financially wealthy within her own right), Eva has a settlement from her abuse (and her stepfather’s financial guidance), which whether she likes it or not has also left her financially secure. The only person who doesn’t have that type of security is Carey. He uses his looks to his advantage to earn his income (modeling). His relationship with Eva is what allows him access to financial independence. Those are just my thoughts. What does everyone else think?

[GiGi]

Hi everyone, I just had a quick technical question. Why do my posts come out as one big jumbled, non-spaced post? When I prepare my posts I make sure that my paragraphs are properly spaced thereby allowing the reader's eyes to follow the train of thought more easily. What am I doing wrong? Help! Thanks in advance everyone.

[LN Cronan]

GiGi: Are you copying/pasting from a Word or Note document into the text box? Or are you entering text directly into the website box?

 

Also, what device are you using: tablet, laptop, desktop? Finally, what operating system: Windows 8 or an earlier version of Windows? Apple? A mobile operating system, such as Android?

 

It could be a matter of how this site translates what you provide. Some experimenting might get around the issue.

[GiGi]

Hi LN Cronan, In response to your questions; I do copy and paste at times from Microsoft Office Word 2007. I like to check my posting for spelling errors before posting them. I use a laptop computer. I have never used or owned a desktop. It is the same computer that I have used for several years. I am not sure what I would have to do to get the postings to appears more fluid. Any suggestions? :)

[LN Cronan]

Hi GiGi!

 

Maybe instead of composing in Word, running your spellcheck there, then copying into the text box here, instead write your post here, copying into Word to spellcheck, make any corrections here and then hit post.

 

What version of Windows does your laptop run? Did you install the new Windows 8, or are you running whatever earlier version of Windows came with your laptop when you got it a few years ago.

[GiGi]

 

Hi GiGi!

 

Maybe instead of composing in Word, running your spellcheck there, then copying into the text box here, instead write your post here, copying into Word to spellcheck, make any corrections here and then hit post.

 

What version of Windows does your laptop run? Did you install the new Windows 8, or are you running whatever earlier version of Windows came with your laptop when you got it a few years ago.

 

Hi LN Cronan,

Thank you for the suggestions. I think I may have figured out a way to get around the spacing issue. Time will tell. I tried your suggestions but the only way things seem to be better is if I get to preview the post. We will see. :)

[MrsCrossfire]

The little i see of Christopher the better. I want to see more of Ireland too. May is too far off. :-(

I agree..! :)

[LN Cronan]

Waiving "hi" to new member MrsCrossfire. As long as your first name isn't Corrine, we're good, LOL. 

 

Now that Nathan's dead, Christopher is about the only halfway nasty villain left among the current cast of characters. Well, him and maybe Dr. Lucas.  

 

Someone's got to take over as chief protagonist for Entwined. My first bet is it'll be Detective Shelly Graves, who will try to take down Gideon. Another possibility, delving into Gideon's past, would be the pedophile who abused him: where is that guy now.

 

But I can also see Christopher and Lucas harassing Eva some more in their attempts to twist Gideon's tail. Christopher especially could turn nasty - we've seen what he pulled with Magdalene. Eva taking him to lunch near the end of Reflected may come back to haunt, because I can envision Christopher seeing that as an opening to start chasing her. 

[GiGi]

Hi MrsCrossfire, Welcome! :)

[MrsCrossfire]

Waiving "hi" to new member MrsCrossfire. As long as your first name isn't Corrine, we're good, LOL. 

 

Now that Nathan's dead, Christopher is about the only halfway nasty villain left among the current cast of characters. Well, him and maybe Dr. Lucas.  

 

Someone's got to take over as chief protagonist for Entwined. My first bet is it'll be Detective Shelly Graves, who will try to take down Gideon. Another possibility, delving into Gideon's past, would be the pedophile who abused him: where is that guy now.

 

But I can also see Christopher and Lucas harassing Eva some more in their attempts to twist Gideon's tail. Christopher especially could turn nasty - we've seen what he pulled with Magdalene. Eva taking him to lunch near the end of Reflected may come back to haunt, because I can envision Christopher seeing that as an opening to start chasing her. 

Lol Nooooo that's not my name..! The less I see of Corinne, the better...!!!

[MrsCrossfire]

Hi MrsCrossfire,

Welcome!

Thanks..!!!

[LN Cronan]

We've spent so much time this week talking about Nathan that we've been neglecting Gideon's family. Given that we're going to learn dark stuff about Gideon's history (and thus his family) in Entwined, let's have fun speculating how the Vidals might be behaving as Entwined opens up.

 

Recapping the final few days of Reflected as they relate directly to the Vidals:

 

Saturday night - Eva went out on the town and ended up at a small club where Elizabeth Vidal, Christopher Jr. and Christopher Sr. were all there.  Christopher yet again took an the opportunity to hit on Eva by dancing with her. More importantly, Eva seized the opportunity to corner Elizabeth near the ladies room and let Elizabeth have it for having had a very serious role in Gideon being terribly damaged as a child and now suffering horribly as a grown man.

 

Sometime prior to Tuesday morning: Elizabeth obviously confronted Gideon about what Eva did on Saturday, because when Gideon talked to Eva on Tuesday, practically the first thing he did was to demand what Eva was up to going around confronting people. "My mother. Corrine. God-d***** Lucas. What the f*** are you doing, Eva?"

 

Tuesday morning: Just before Gideon dragged Eva away from Dr. Lucas' office, she had been in there accusing Lucas of having had something to do with the cover-up of the sexual abuse Gideon suffered as a child. During the fight with Elizabeth on Saturday night, Eva had learned Elizabeth had two pediatricians examine Gideon and tell her (Elizabeth) there weren't any signs Gideon was abused. Eva concluded Dr. Lucas had been one of the pediatricians. To his face on Tuesday morning, Eva accused Lucas of having lied to Gideon's mother. More significantly, Eva vowed to find out the truth. Eva made the threat then marched out of his office -- and the both of them discovered Gideon waiting right outside the door.

 

Tuesday midday: Eva took Christopher Jr. to lunch. Originally, he too was on her running list of people to confront, but in the end she let him off easy by simply patiently listening while Christopher Jr. told her all about why he hates Gideon. What Eva got out of it was a better understanding of why Christopher does: he's incredibly jealous of Gideon. That lunch ended with Christopher telling Eva he wants to take her out.

 

 

Reflected ended on Wednesday evening with Eva on Gideon's doorstep hugging him. So ..... here's some things to throw out for discussion about what might happen in Entwined because of what went down between Saturday night and Tuesday midday:

 

• What does Christopher Sr. know about Eva's accusations against his wife and Eva's threat against Dr. Lucas? And what steps might Christopher Sr. take?
• It's safe to say Elizabeth had a fight with Gideon over what Eva did to her. What's Gideon doing about his mother now that Eva has made a sworn enemy of her?
• What about Christopher Jr.? How much does he know about the fight between Eva and his mother on Saturday? Will he also find out about the fight Eva had with Lucas on Tuesday?
• Will Corrine tell Christopher about Eva showing up on her doorstep Tuesday morning? And if so, is Corrine going to lie through her teeth about what actually happened between her and Eva?
• What's Christopher Jr. planning to do in order to try (good luck with that!) getting Eva to go out with him (and obviously to try to seduce her)? Is he going to start trying to mess with Eva's mind over, as Christopher put it, Gideon got " .... back together with Corrine."

 

We could have fun with this. And I know some posters are getting tired of all the Nathan talk.