Rogue

Good morning my most favourite Ms. Rogue,

I can completely see where you are coming from. I can absolutely agree that Brett was young and inexperienced as far as love was concerned. I have a hard time reconcilling Brett having a good laugh at Eva's expense. Even if someone was young, I would hope that Brett would have nipped that "chatter" in the bud but he didn't and ultimately Eva saw the writing on the wall. She saw how she was regarded by Brett and she walked. No one likes to be thought of a s wh*re (even if their actions have been less than stellar).

I guess we will never know if Brett turned out to be a good guy or not. Eva is now married and she needs to put an end to this Brett charade. If she doesn't a lot of people will end up getting hurt needlessly. That is why I suggest Deanna! If Brett really is the great guy that many ladies think he is, then let him use use wooing skills on someone who desperately needs them! Deanna can also report about Brett and his band! I am telling you this is a winner winner situation! What do you think?

Hi Gigi,

I guess I don't think Deanna is good enough for him, she has a vindictive streak that one, how about Megumi?

I can see what you mean about Brett having a laugh at Eva's expense and I can understand why she felt that way. I just wanted to explain why I don't think I he was doing it to laugh at her or be unkind in any way...

I have grown up in a big but very close crowd of friends, on average there is at least 20 of us out every weekend, with a fairly even divide male/female. We generally get together at someone's house and the night always begins the same way... all the girls in one room and the boys in another. In both rooms sex is a common topic but the difference in which girls and boys are prepared to talk about it even amongst their closest friends has always fascinated me. I should explain that I am a total tomboy and always end up in with the boys long before the crowd starts to mix, so I have been privy to many a boy chat about sex.

When one of the guys meets someone new, I can tell by their face if they really like her or not but his words - its all about the sex. Because guys don't admit to romantic feelings or mushy stuff in front of other guys unless they know the girl feels the same way.

What I mean is, my boyfriend and I have been together for 9 years. Everyone in our crowd of friends respects our relationship and they dont give him hassle for not reducing our sex life into some silly joke for his mates. I know he still talks about us sometimes, just as I do with the girls - but its in a different way than the singles.

Before Eva overheard Brett talking about her, she had tried to make the sex the best Brett had ever had. If it was indeed the best sex he'd ever had, every guy I know would have been quite quick to tell his mates, how awesome it was. This is his way of telling the guys he really likes this girl without looking like a p***y - which is ridiculous but totally true. Do you get what I mean? I thunk Brett could have been more respectful and he definitely should have made sure Eva was out of ear shot but he was just a boy being a boy. I mean the guys I spend time with are hitting 30 and while they have matured significantly over the last 10-15 years that I've known them, they still talk sex with their mates - everyone does .

Hi Rogue,

I read your posting and I agree with you in that Brett isn’t to blame for anything that he has done since the kiss. Eva has been stringing him along. It is just my personal opinion that she is using him to keep the police at bay, but one never knows with these books.

I think that although Eva may have liked the song, I think she may have wanted to crawl under a rock when she saw that video. That video represented a time in her past that she wasn’t proud of.

Brett and Eva’s relationship was only about se* and nothing else which is really sad in a way. I will concede that maybe Brett didn’t have any other way to connect with Eva but I would have hoped that he would have matured over the past several years. What do you think?

Hi Gigi,

I agree and I can understand why she would be embarrassed by the video. But I don't think that was Brett's intention when he made it. He has no way of knowing that Eva is ashamed or embarrassed by that part of her past - she's never told him.

My point is though that I think Brett has matured and wants more than just sex this time. Ok he made a couple of crude and inappropriate comments but that was hardly all he said.

He said he wanted to make a proper go of things with Eva and even suggested how they might make it work given that they live in different cities and he's on tour. I think this shows that he has spent quite a lot of time thinking about what went wrong before and how to correct those mistakes this time. That sex isn't all he wants this time, though I don't believe it was all he ever wanted before. Do you see where I'm coming from?

I keep thinking about Eva and how she appears to be leading Brett on, how wittingly is hard to say for sure. Now I'm thinking she's almost mentally living a parallel life with him. She was so crazy about him back in the day and tried so hard to create a real relationship with him, but he was too immature to handle her or even acknowledge his feelings for her.

I think Eva is so happy and relieved to find Brett now acting towards her the way she wished back then that she has a hard time separating herself from him and making a clean break from her past with him. Some of her actions re Brett are so inappropriate and hurtful to Gideon I can only explain it to myself by thinking she's still a little bit stuck in the past. I mean we know she couldn't be more passionately in love with Gideon, and she's whip smart and perceptive, so that's the only way I can explain it.

Totally agree with you here Nrock.

Personally, I think Eva (and maybe Gideon) are totally to blame for the whole Brett situation. IMO he has done absolutely nothing wrong. All he's doing is pursuing a woman he lost a long time ago and has wanted back ever since.

People's main complaints about him are:

1. Him being overly familiar and a bit crude to Eva too quickly. However every one is quite forgiving of Gideon who did the same thing and with less right IMO.

2. The Golden video - it was embarrassing and uncomfortable for Eva. However it was just a visual representation of the song, as many music videos are. It's not like he filled it with sex scenes & they had nothing to do with anything. The song describes their relationship which was mainly about sex, and Eva had no problem with the song, in fact I think she was flattered by it.

Morning Rogue

Sorry to have exasperated you yesterday regarding Brett. I won't do it again. he ain't all bad.

I must learn to shut my mouth sometimes.

Gets me into trouble.

Have a good day

Hi Julie,

No apology necessary. I enjoy the debate here about controversial characters more than anything. And I apologise if I seemed a little exasperated, I think we are all so emotionally invested in these characters its easy to get worked up when debating your point!

Hope you have a great day

Remember the conversation they had the day they went for lunch - it was like they were talking about completely different people. They never communicated properly back then and so neither of them had any idea of what the other was thinking. Eva's insecurity made her think she was just another groupie whereas Brett thought they had something deeper going on.

Not to mention the lyrics of the song. Brett felt like she was keeping him at a distance, he was allowed to know her body but not her heart. Whereas the way Eva recalls it, she desperately wanted to be his girlfriend and thought she made it quite obvious but he wasn't interested.

Serious communication issues....

I don't regard Brett and Eva as lovers. She was just a convenient f* ck for him, when there was no one else to put out. Brett and his mate had a laugh at her expense in the pool hall. I'm sure it wasn't complimentary! She was desperate, needing to feel love and be loved. He used her like all the other girls.

But we can't know for sure what happened when Eva wasn't there. She assumed he would other girls when she wasn't around but that could be her insecurity talking - she wasn't there, she doesn't know what he was doing. He considered them to be an item - he said they were together for 6 months and that that was the longest relationship he'd ever had... I'm not saying he didn't other girls, all I'm saying is, we assume that because Eva assumed it.

That's also a massive part of Eva's confusion at this point in the book. She always assumed she was nothing more than a convenient for Brett, but she's now starting to realise that she might have been wrong - based on the song he wrote about how he felt, and his actions recently...

I so agree with you and it's a good point about him writing the song as having been an indication of his feelings. As I've said before, I think he's basically a decent guy. He's grown and matured some, though not enough, just like Eva has. He's had very mixed messages, to say the least. Why shouldn't he take a shot? Eva's very lovable and he knows how he blew it the first time. I'll keep saying it, that I don't believe he would do anything that might hurt her with something like that sex tape. And I don't believe she'd ever have to use martial arts to fend him off. As Cary said, she just has to say no and mean it.

I don't think he has anything to do with the sex tape either. His goal right now is to get Eva back, nothing could jeopardise that worse than releasing a sex tape.

What woman sees a sex tape of herself and thinks yea that was hot, I must hook up with him again?!? No one! !

And what sane man thinks that that is a likely reaction to his releasing a sex tape?! While he might think it would drive a wedge between her and Gideon, he could never believe it would bring her back to him!!

Brett's talking about how they can make a relationship work. I genuinely think that's what he wants. He talks about when the tour ends and coming to stay with Eva for the holidays... he seems to me to be making a real effort. Its not just all crude come on lines. And IMO, Brett had far more right to get crude and overly familiar too quickly than Gideon ever did. At least they had some sort of previous relationship!!

If a total stranger walked up to me and said what Gideon said to me, I'd have slapped him (at the very least)

An ex lover however, I wouldn't slap him. I might not be thrilled but I would take it much better from an ex than from a stranger!!

Although all along Eva has been convinced that Brett never had any true feelings for her and that is why she doesn't really understand his motivation now but I'm sure he did have feelings for her because she was so insecure in the past that she never recognized when anyone cared for her as was the case with Gideon in the beginning; Gideon even said that her insecurities blinded her so I really don't think she realizes that she is sending Brett mixed signals because she doesn't think he cares for her...

Totally agree with you here. If Brett never had feelings for Eva why did he write the song Golden?

He released that song before he knew where Eva was / what she was doing / who she was dating. But he as much as said that he was hoping it would bring Eva back to him. That is not someone who is all about the chase. That is the actions of someone who had feelings for someone and missed them greatly when they were gone.

Eva's insecurities are why she thought Brett never had feelings for her. Though I'm sure his actions didn't help matters. They were both kids and poor at expressing their feelings and what was going on in their heads.

IMO Brett has been searching for Eva for a long time and that is why he is not taking no for an answer. He's been thinking about and missing her for 4 years and he given the mixed signals she's been sending, you can't really blame the guy for not giving up so easily. She walked away once, he doesn't want that to happen again.

It's weird because I can't decide whose side I am on on the job argument. I get why Eva wants to stand on her own 2 feet and accomplish things on her own. But at the same time its insane that she work for someone else given the size of Gideon's empire!! What does everyone think is going to happen with this?

My gut is telling me that Eva will end up running both the foundation she sets up and the Crossroads foundation. That would be a good compromise... what do you think?

Hi Nancy

I think we all know that Gideon requested Mark, when he was asked to work on the Kingsman Vodka project(hmmm, i wonder why?). I also think that Mark didn't get the Adriana vineyard account, because Gideon had acquired the Black Rosé vineyard, and a certain assistant would have been working with the opposition. I'm sure Gideon has had a hand in this somewhere.

I agree. Though I can't quite figure out how Gideon could stop a company he doesn't own from hiring another company he doesn't own. But knowing Gideon he'll find a way! ! :)

Hi Michele

I have been wondering if Eva will have another confrontation with Corinne, as she(Eva) knows how she is manipulating Gideon. All this tiptoeing round her needs to stop! Eva needs to tell her a few home truths, at the very least. Everyone to the bleachers for the show! Lol

Same goes for Brett. Both of these two need to get a clue.

Hi Julie,

I'm not sure if Eva confronted Corinne that it would help any. Corinne's currently on the fast track to crazy. She's not acting rationally at the minute and if Eva were to confront her, there is no telling what she would do. But I don't thibk she would recognise that Gideon has chosen Eva and it's over. I think for Corinne to accept that fact it has to come from Gideon.

Think about it, at which point would you give up...

Eva telling you "he loves me."

Gideon telling you "I love her. "

With both Brett & Corinne, it has to come from the person they are pursuing. It's the only way they'll accept defeat.

Kristen will have a lot more information since she was working the event and sitting with Sylvia but I'll pass on what I have.

My two favorite topics are Brett & Corinne so I'll start there.

When I asked about Corinne (I tried to rephrase my question a couple times) regarding how soon in book 4 she would hang around. Sylvia said that was a spoiler questions. However, the way she said it and her facial expression makes me think we haven't seen the last of Corinne, especially since we are going deeper into Gideon's story.

Brett again not too much information because the question was a spoiler but she did tell me that Eva is toying with fire a little. This is because there is a tug of ware happening within her. She is confused about what she sees as a complete 180 with Brett. Brett played a big part in messing with her self-esteem issues and her self-esteem was already severely damaged by the abuse. (I didn't get this part verbatim but almost) Eva is still playing with her former need to self destruction and this self destruction need to end. She has to put it to rest and that will happen via Brett.

When I read this bit about Eva and Brett my heart sank a little. I thought oh no she's going to cheat. But the more I think about it, I just don't think she will. As a reader I personally would lose a lot of respect for Eva if she were to cheat but more than that I think all of her reactions to cheating when her parents hooked up suggest it is not something she would do.

I think Eva is enjoying the attention from Brett, something she desperately wanted all those years ago, and she's not stopping to think how much a continuing relationship with him will hurt Gideon. There is also probably a subconscious desire to punish him for the ongoing Corinne situation. I also don't think she's thinking about Brett's feelings while she continues to send him mixed signals - I'm not sure she consciously realises thats what she is doing.

I think in SD Brett is going to come on too strong and Eva having the strength to say no (something she was never been able to say to Brett before) will be the self-confidence boost she needs to overcome her self esteem issues.

Hi guys,

People keep saying that Brett must know about the sex tape as the Golden video was based on the footage available of Eva.

If I remember correctly the Golden video acted out the lyrics, it was a visual representation of the song. The fact that there was sex tape available of these activities is because the song is a true story.

Therefore I think we are being a bit quick to assume Brett knew about the sex tape or to say he must have because of the similarity between videos.

The song came first, then the music video - a visual representation of the lyrics, as they often are, then a sex tape using real footage as the song is based in fact. That doesn't make Brett guilty of anything except writing a song and making a music video. An insensitive music video yes, but Eva didn't seem to have a problem witj the whole world knowing her business through the lyrics of the song..

Hi Nrock,

I read your posting and I thought a lot about what you said. It is true that we are living in a different time and age. It is also true that many people share very intimate details as if they were casually talking about the weather. I think where I get stuck is that Brett hasn’t grown at all since he and Eva dated (yes I use that term loosely).

You are absolutely correct that Brett may have made a whole bunch of assumptions, but what struck me was the fact that Brett never made the effort to get to know Eva back then. It also strikes me as odd that Brett can walk back into Eva’s life after all these years and start speaking in such an inappropriate manner with her. He spoke to her like “intimate lovers†do. Not like people who had walked away from the relationship. It almost seems like Brett has no concept of boundaries and that is why I worry. Do you know what I mean? What do you think? What does everyone think?

Hi Gigi & Nrock,

I totally get where you are coming from about the way Brett talks to Eva so intimately. However it is important to remember how Gideon spoke to Eva before they were in a relationship. Personally I think the way he spoke to her was just as bad, if not worse as he had no previous relationship of any kind with her, and he was just as forward and inappropriate.

Off the top of my head - Eva was actually offended by the way Gideon spoke to her the first few times, even though it turned her on. She doesn't seem to be offended by Brett doing it, this may be an inappropriate response on her behalf, or it could be Gideon desensitised her to being spoken to in such a way. Or it could be she doesn't think its inappropriate because of their previous relationship... what do you think?

I'm not sure Brett would be clued into how embarrassed and humiliated Eva would have been about the music video. For people in the entertainment business, publicity is life blood. They thrive on it and need it and it keeps them in the public eye. Also, from what I see happening in the world of Facebook (though I don't belong) and Instagram and all the other media sharing platforms, many people of Eva and Brett's generation feel differently about sharing intimate details about their lives. After all, what Brett knew about Eva wasn't much besides she was fun, convenient, and a great f*ck. He didn't know her or her trauma or her new life style. He may have been, and was, clueless about what her reaction would be. Poor dumb cluck may have been thinking she'd be pleased because he was publicly declaring his love and muse.

Please don't think I'm saying that everyone on Facebook is like that, just that I think there is a different mind set for every generation. Sometimes I can't believe it when my daughter has shown me examples of what some people post!

The real sex tape is another thing, however. I don't imagine Yinara ((sp?) would have showed it to him or that Brett would think it was ok. Yimara is probably just trying to make a quick buck by capitalizing on the Eva video. Sure it probably wouldn't have bothered Brett personally, but I don't think he'd be stupid enough not to understand how most girls would react. After all, he's trying hard to get back in her life.

I agree, Nrock. We also need to remember that the video is a visualisation of the Golden lyrics. Eva never expressed to Brett or anyone that she was unhappy with the song Golden or how it portrayed her. And while I get the difference - an idea or a suggestion in a lyric compared to having it acted out for the world to see.

It probably never even occurred to Brett that she wouldn't like the video. Was that nieve of him, yes but I don't think he made the video to hurt Eva, he was trying to remind her of the 'good times' same as the song was supposed to do. When he released Golden he was trying to get her back, even though he had no clue where she was or what she was doing. He was hoping she'd hear the song and turn up at a concert or get in touch. I think the video was just another extension of that.

Brett doesnt understand that Eva is ashamed of her past both with him and in general. And why should he? He's not ashamed of any of it. And Eva has never told him anything to make him think she might be.

Hi Rogue,

I just wanted to ask if you are feeling any better today? I hope you are feeling better!

Hi Gigi,

Yes I'm finally starting to feel better thank you.

Hope you have a great day :)

Hi Rogue,

I read your statement and I can completely see where you are coming from. My suggestion of Gideon offering an explanation about why they broke up all those years ago would come from the fact that Gideon has had an opportunity to reflect on why he did what he did over the years and maybe he could put things in perspective for Corinne. I don’t think he has to go into great detail, just apologize.

I agree with you, that Gideon sending mixed messages to Corinne wouldn’t have made her mentally ill. I think that she was mentally ill long before she ever came to New York. I think that everything that happened in (perhaps being seen by Anne, purposely being given medications that caused her to have suicidal thoughts, etc.) New York exacerbated her condition.

You make a very clear and compelling case of a woman who deluded herself and that also most likely fed into her mental illness. Now whether she was mentally ill and then she deluded herself, I don’t know and I am not sure anyone can know. It is obvious that something happened all those ago that stuck with Corinne and created subsequent problems for her. I hope that she gets help for it.

You are also completely correct in that Gideon shouldn’t continue to feel guilt over Corinne’s attempted suicide (or anyone else’s for that fact!). At the end of the day, Corinne is the one who swallowed that bottle of pills and suffered a miscarriage, not Gideon. No one forced her to swallow those pills. She did that all on her own.

You also make an incredibly good point about how Corinne handled her marriage. It is almost as if she couldn’t reconcile herself with the fact, that although her “dream†of marrying Gideon may not have come true, she has made a really nice life for herself with a nice guy (let’s hope JF is a nice guy), in spite of her breakup with Gideon.

At the end of the day, Corinne is responsible for herself. If Gideon can apologize and she will accept it, then he should. Above and beyond that Gideon doesn’t owe Corinne anything more. You are correct, Corinne’s issues are her own and she will have to face them. Now the medical system is involved and she won’t be able to manipulate them; if this was all just a ruse, or she will finally start getting the help that she so desperately needed all these years.

Are we good now? Can we finally book Corinne a ticket back to France? Please say yes! Thank you for the discussion.

Hi Gigi

All good, thanks for a great debate! ! And yes to the plane ticket back to France! ! I'll even upgrade her to first class if she'll leave faster LOL

I can't find the original post but someone was wondering how Gideon would have proposed if Eva hadn't run off in to the sea. Every time I reread the book I feel like the conversation they had the morning before the Golden video event (sorry I cant remember the exact chapter) was him working up to a proposal. I think he would have done it before Eva went out with Brett that night if they had already had the 'Hugh' conversation.

The crossfire conversation would have been the perfect lead in to a proposal IMO

What do you all think?

Hi Rogue,

I just wanted to wish you a blessed day.

And you, Gigi! I apologise if I seem a bit grumpy today, I was up all night with a stomach bug so I'm tired and cranky today.

Have a great day :)

Hi Rogue,

I was reading what you said and I sat and thought about it. I think we are talking about two separate issues here; one would be Corinne’s manipulation and the second is Corinne’s mental illness.

You are absolutely correct that Corinne ended the relationship. I think where we differ is that she really didn’t have a choice. Gideon couldn’t marry this woman and I think it became abundantly clear when she proposed and he accepted. He couldn’t even spend a night in the hotel together. He was always scrabbling to get out of being together with Corinne. That is where I think Gideon would need to explain this to Corinne.

I don’t think that Corinne was trying to intentionally manipulate Gideon. I think that she had waited for so long and tried so hard to get him to open up; do things together; try being together more, try different things sexually, etc. and I think that she finally got so frustrated that she put her hands up and walked away. Now I know none of this is written in the book; I am simply going by human nature here. Many women try to fix problems in their relationships. They try to talk about what’s going on (usually they get shut down by their partner), make suggestions, nag, cry, scream, then quietly say they are not happy and finally walk out the door.

In retrospect one would think that Corinne might have had a little more self-esteem but it doesn’t seem that way. Maybe she truly loved Gideon and he was her first love or her one and only love. Who knows? I think she married Jean Francois as a rebound man and realized that she had made a huge mistake. I think that maybe she tried to be happy but in the end she wasn’t able to, but she lived with her melancholy as many women do (who are in unhappy relationships).

I think that when Corinne found out that Gideon was dating someone, she realized that if she was to ever have a final chance at winning back the love of her life she would have to do it now! She realized that something in Gideon’s voice would have been different. I am not excusing what Corinne did. I don’t think it was nice, but let’s also remember that Gideon was not married at the time so she was ruining an engagement or marriage. She managed to do that all on her own. Silly girl!!

You are also correct that these two never had an honest open communication. I think that was their problem from the beginning. It would have been nice if Gideon could have had this conversation with Corinne after they broke up, but that never happened and I am not sure that he would have known why he acted the way he did. So how can someone explain what they did, when they don’t understand it themselves?

My suggestion of having that final conversation with Corinne now is based on the fact that this woman attempted suicide and it was serious enough that she miscarried. If Gideon never told Corinne was the deal was, then as an act of humanity, Gideon should tell her why they would never have worked in the past and never will work in the future. I think people should know why they are breaking up. Sometimes that happens and sometimes that doesn’t happen. That’s life.

Corinne’s manipulation aside, she is now mentally ill and I would hope that Gideon would wish the best for her and in time forgive her for her part in that twisted relationship. The act of telling Corinne the truth is a compassionate action in my opinion. Asides from that I don’t think that Gideon owes her anything further. Do you know what I mean? I value your opinion and I hope you can understand where I am coming from. I value this dialogue.

Hi Gigi,

I do get what you mean. What I mean, is that I don't really see what Gideon can tell her that she doesn't already know.

If what you are saying is true, that Corinne walked away because it had become clear Gideon couldn't open up to her / couldn't marry her. What more can he say? He's not going to tell her about his abuse, all he can really do is apologise for not being more honest with her at the time - which I totally agree he should do.

However, I don't think Gideon sending her mixed messages for a couple of weeks is enough to make her mentally ill. Sure, it could have made her worse, but I think her mental illness stems from her inability / unwillingness to see the truth.

She walked away because she realised Gideon didnt love her like she loved him, yet she's convinced herself that Gideon was pining for her all these years. She's convinced herself that she loves this man she doesn't really know, instead of opening her heart to the man she's with, who loves her, married her etc... she's convinced herself that JFG is indifferent to her, which is not something I get from him in the book. He clearly loves her, but he's a bit of a coward, or maybe he's sick and tired of living in the shadow of Gideon's memory!

If that's the case Corinne's relationship / mental illness problems are of her own making and while I think Gideonn should apologise for not being more honest with Corinne all those years ago. I don't think he should continue to feel guilt for HER actions, since the end of their relationship 7 odd years ago.

Do you see what I mean? Gideon can't tell her anything she doesn't already know - the problem is that she doesn't want to accept it. And that's her issue, not his.

Hi Rogue,

I read your comments and I just wanted to clarify a few things. Actually the doctors would have a good indication of how much medication Corinne would have ingested. If Corinne was unconscious when she was taken to the hospital then as a matter of absolute protocol, they would have drawn blood and urine in order to identify and confirm which medications were used in suicide attempt. Those test would also tell a doctor how much of the medication was in her system, had been absorbed and the pumping of her stomach may also have revealed how many pills she may have swallowed.

If Corinne had only taken a few pills for show, it wouldn't have been classified as a serious suicide attempt. She would have been given syrup of Ipicac (medication to make a person vomit) and then activated charcol (to absorb the effects of a few pills). She would have gone from the emergency department straight up to the psychiatric ward. She wouldn't have been up on one of the wards recovery rooms. Once in the psychiatric ward, Corinne would have to meet with a Psychiatrist who would have to assess whether she was a danger to herself or to others. After an interview she would most likely have been released to out-patient care. She would have been referred to a doctor or an appointment booked for her to see one of the resident psychiatrists in follow up.

One of our forum members clarrified how a miscarriage might occur and it is serious. To the best of my knowledge, the actual physical act of pumping someone's stomach (i.e. inserting a nasogastric tube down into the stomach to suction out the contents of the stomach), wouldn't make someone lose consciousness. Most people are gagging and retching because it is such an uncomfortable experience.

You are correct. We don't how Corinne was found. We also don't know who called for help. That will remain a mystery until Sylvia decides to enlighten all of us (hopefully sooner rather than later). All I am saying is that thus far we know that Corinne was depressed, had sought treatment, was prescribed medication, attempted suicide and as a result had a miscarriage. Those facts alone are serious.

I think for me, I will consider Corinne's miscarriage and loss of her freedom (because she is going to psychiatric ward of the hospital) enough of a punishment for her. Whatever her motives were, I don't think it matters anymore. Regardless where this woman started, she wound up seriously mentally ill and will have to live with the consequences fof what's she has done for the rest of her life.

I just want to make sure that we don't confuse actual facts with theories and speculation. If it's ok with you, I'd rather just skip this whole "crow pie" thing. We all bring our own life experiences and understanding of this material to this forum and I'd like to think that we simply engage in lively debate. Therfore no "crow pie" is necessary. What do you think?

Hi Gigi,

I agree that the Drs would have a good idea of how many pills, Corinne took once they finished examining her. My point was the only time the number of pills is mentioned is when Gideon receives the initial phone call telling him Corinne is in the hospital.

As we see the Dr make a report to the family while Eva and Gideon are at the hospital, I think it is fairly safe to assume that no-one knew (but Corinne) at the time of that call just how many pills were taken.

At no time is Corinne's suicide attempt described as SERIOUS. Nor is there any mention of her losing consciousness.

The only specifics we have about the actual attempt is that Corinne took some pills and she lost her baby because of this suicide attempt. Like you said we dont want fo confuse actual facts with thoughts and speculations.

As for who found her, based on the other characters reactions to JFG, I find it difficult to believe any of them would have contacted him to inform him Corinne was in the hospital. They are all ignoring him and treating Gideon like the son-in-law!! Therefore I assume JFG was the one to find her. Complete speculation on my part but I can't figure out how else he would be there.

Hi Rogue,

I agree with your assessment about Corinne per say. Where I think we differ is that somewhere along the lines, Gideon never told Corinne why he let her walk away all those years ago. I think that Corinne held on to the hope that she could win Gideon back because she never heard from his lips that he never really loved her or that he was so screwed up that he wasn’t capable of loving her the way that a woman should be loved.

I agree that Gideon was inadvertently sending Corinne mixed messages. He used Corinne as his cover and also used her to deflect any potential speculation or suspicions about Eva away from her.

Now that Corinne is in the hospital, I think that Gideon owes her one more conversation, with the presence of her psychiatrist. He needs to explain that he never loved her or wasn’t capable of loving her they way a woman deserves to be loved. I too, don’t think that Gideon would need to go into detail about his past other than to say that he was one seriously screwed up individual and that at that stage in his life; he wasn’t capable of loving himself, let alone anyone else.

I also agree with you, that Corinne will probably get hurt when she finds out what Gideon had been hiding from her. Quite frankly he needs to own that. That’s why I suggested that Corinne’s psychiatrist be present during that final conversation. If Corinne has held false hopes or has beaten herself up all these years because she thought that she did something wrong and lost this “wonderful†relationship, then Gideon needs to let her off the hook.

Above and beyond that, I don’t think that Gideon owes Corinne anything more. To continue to have contact with this woman, in her state of mind, would only be cruel.

Hi Gigi,

I totally get where you are coming from and agree for the most part.

The only real problem I have with what you are saying is,

Corinne left Gideon. She chose to end that relationship and walk away. Now the reason she did it was (standard Corinne) to try TO MANIPULATE GIDEON into loving her more, or spending more time with her or whatever.

Now if Corinne was playing these manipulation games way back then, she knew Gideon didnt feel the same about her as she felt about him. But, regardless when she ended the relationship and walked away at that point Gideon owed her nothing. She had ended the relationship, no mature adult would phone up and say "yeah, well I never loved you anyway."

Gideon let her walk away rather that communicating openly and honestly, but he didnt make her walk away.

Corinne is the one at fault here, she walked away to manipulate Gideon instead of opening up some open and honest dialogue - it backfired.

You said that Corinne never gave up hope because Gideon never told her that he didn't love her or wasn't capable of it. But she walked away and he let her go. She was giving herself false hope - if there was hope to have, he'd have gone after her. Actions speak louder than words but yet again Corinne only listens to what she wants to hear!!

Also, if someone breaks up with me, I don't consider it my job to make them feel better about the situation. Gideon's job isn't to comfort Corinne for choices she makes once she's ended things - that's the job of a boyfriend/fiancé/husband.

Hi Rogue.

I agree with this, but I feel that Angus was the one who stopped the abuse from continuing. Is that why Gideon and him have such a good relationship. Gideon trusts him more than anything. Did Gideon confide in Angus? Angus has been a surrogate father all these years to Gideon.

I had always thought that too. That Angus had caught Gideon's abuser and stopped the abuse. What doesn't make sense to me about that scenario though, is if Angus caught Gideon's abuser in the act surely he would have told the Vidals? It would be his job to do so and I don't see him letting the family continuing to believe Gideon was lying about the abuse even if he managed to scare Hugh off himself discreetly.

And if Angus a trusted member of their security staff told the Vidals that he caught Hugh abusing Gideon, how can Elizabeth still be denying that it happened all these years later. If they hadn't believed Angus why would he still be working for them all those years later when Gideon had enough money to hire him away from them?

I think Angus recognised that there was something wrong with Gideon, he may have even been aware of the accusations Gideon was making and believed them due to the changes in his behaviour. Im not convinced he had anything to do with the end of the abuse, but I think he started to teach Gideon some mixed martial arts and gave him a positive outlet for his anger and frustration, and this brought them closer.

Hi Rogue, 

I think that Gideon also created this mess by not being honest with Corinne either.  I get such a strong feeling that Gideon never told Corinne why he let her walk away all those years ago and I think that is why she made so many false assumptions about how she is going to get Gideon back. 

 

Gideon also fed into the delusion by not setting her straight and by sending her mixed signals.  What do you think?

Oh I totally agree that Gideon was guilty of sending Corinne mixed signals. But I think he was only aware that he was doing so once she was back in NY and he was doing it on purpose to fool the police.

I'm not sure how Gideon would have initiated a conversation about the end of their previous relationship. I think while Corinne was in France she was calling Gideon daily and likely crying to him about the end of her marriage etc... but I doubt she was telling him she still loved him and wanted him back. That would be coming on a bit strong for Corinne who tends to act much more subtly manipulating situations to her advantage. Also, by telling Gideon straight out the reason she was leaving her marriage was for him, she ran the risk ofhim telling her not to bother. Sure he was being a friend, but I don't think he was sending any indications to this married woman that he wanted her back (except those she chose to see/imagined for herself - all his dates looked like her - I think this is a mommy issue but everyone assumes its a Corinne issue)

Once she was back in NY and he was purposely sending her mixed signals, he couldn't exactly sit her down and explain that they would never be anything but friends - he needed her reactions to be honest, so he needed her to believe that she had a chance.

When he cut things off with Corinne, he should probably explained things a bit more. However, he would never tell her about his abuse and the issues that has caused, so how could he tell her he was relieved when she broke off the engagement without seriously hurting her? We don't know how that conversation between them went down, but I assume Corinne was probably quite upset during it, and Gideon wouldnt want to bring her more pain. In the long run, I think it would be good for her to know, but I can't see how he could tell her without telling her the full truth, and not hurt her deeply. She's been in love with him (well the man she thinks he is) for 10 years!!

Hi Claudine, 

I get where you are coming from.  I think for me, Dr. Lucas starting lying the moment he saw the physical signs of se**l abuse.  I think that his decision was clinched the moment Gideon confirmed that "Mr. Hugh" was the person who was abusing him.  I could see Gideon potentially opening up to Dr. Lucas because thus far, his mother had perhaps somewhat believed Gideon enough that she took him to someone who would potentially be able to help him and stop the abuse.  I think that in those moments Gideon would have been very trusting of those two.

 

I think that the damage came after he left the exam room and Dr. Lucas lied to Elizabeth Vidal.  He lied to Gideon's mother and in an instant Gideon knew that Dr. Lucas didn't believe him and that his mother thought he was a liar.  Those two incidents would have completely pulled the rug out from under Gideon's legs.

 

Maybe Gideon begged his mom, telling her that he wasn't lying and she took him to another pediatrician and the same results occurred, in which case Gideon got permanently branded as a liar.  I am not sure about how a scenario would play out exactly .  I would have to think about it a little more before I can speculate any further.

 

I think that Dr. Lucas covered up the abuse and was probably horrified by what he saw during Gideon's examination.  I think that he might have been just so sick about what he saw, that he inadvertently distanced himself from Anne.  He probably wouldn't have wanted to be the one to tell his wife that her brother was a sick pedophile and so he became stuck.  He lied so his license would be on the line now and he can't tell his wife because of how she might react so what does he do.  He ignores the problem and by proxy ignores his wife. 

 

It could very well be that Dr. Lucas started throwing himself into his work because he didn't want to deal with his wife or her family.  It could have been one of the reasons that the Lucas's marriage hit the skids and Anne went looking elsewhere.  I am not sure, this is strictly speculation at this point.  I have to think about that a little more before I can commit to something definitively.  What do you think?  What does everyone think?

Hi Gigi,

I have a slightly different version of events - let me know what you think.

Hugh is left alone more and more with Gideon as the shrink is distracted by Elizabeth.

He starts the abuse with masturbation - something that will leave no evidence.

Fairly quickly, Gideon approaches his mother and tells her about Hugh touching him.

She asks Pediatrician #1 to examine Gideon for signs of abuse - none are found.

Hugh's abuse of Gideon increases because he knows the mother doesn't believe the kid, he's been given access even after the accusations. He feels secure enough to escalate the abuse to anal rape.

Gideon tells his mother again, and maybe because Gideon's claims sound more extreme this time, she seeks a second opinion.

Enter Dr Terry Lucas - he does find evidence of abuse but lies and covers it up because Hugh is his brother-in-law.

Gideon's mother really doesn't believe him now. He's been branded a liar by his family and ostracised further, also the abuse likely continues as it did before when Elizabeth didn't believe Gideon.

After her pregnancy, Elizabeth decides she no longer needs to see the shrink, and Gideon's therapy clearly isn't working. This is how the abuse ends.

Gideon felt the need to get revenge on those who had wronged him - Hugh and Terry. As he has not mentioned pediatrician#1 in anyhing more than passing, I can only assume that he doesn't consider him responsible for what happened to him.

Sure, as a kid he probably hated him just as much as the other 2. But as an adult out to aftually get revenge, he likely figured out that the man didn't have any evidence to suggest Gideon was telling the truth.

What do you think?